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El Estandar y Xolo con pelo - The Standard & the Coated
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:41 pm Reply with quote
Gio
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De acuerdo al estandar racial el Xolo con pelo puede presentar cualquier color o combinacion de colores en diferentes tonalidades, asi como tener el pelo en cualquier largo o textura en todo el cuerpo. y el Xolo sin pelo puede presentar algunos pelos insurtos, cortos y densos, de cualquier otro color en la frente y en la nuca, pero nunca debe ser mas largo de 2.5 centimetros y nunca debe formar un copete largo y suave..

Dado que el Xolo con pelo deberia ser exactamente igual al Xolo pelon (son la misma raza no?) creo que se debe buscar un pelaje corto en lugar de permitir cualquier textura y largo. No creen?


According to the breed standard the Coated Xolo can present any color or color combination in different tones, as well as have hair in any texture and length on all their body. and the Hairless Xolo can have some short, coarse thick hairs of any color on the forehead and back of the neck that should never be longer than 2.5 centimeters and should never form a long, soft topknot.

Since Coated Xolos must be exactly like the Hairless Xolo (they are the same breed, aren't they?) I think the correct coat should be short instead of allowing any texture and length. Don't you think?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:01 pm Reply with quote
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A mi en lo personal me gusta mas el de pelo largo pero la verdad nunca lo habia pensado y si tienes razon, si el pelo en el pelon debe ser corto supongo que en el de pelo tambien.

I personally preffer the long haired coateds but I had never thought about it and you are right, if the hairless's hair must be short, I guess the coated's too.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:19 pm Reply with quote
Gabriel Mestre
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Es verdad, el largo del pelo debe ser el mismo para ambas variedades, y al parecer todos coincidimos en eso.

Donde debemos poner más atención es en el inciso correspondiente a las orejas. El estándar racial dice que en la variedad con pelo, cualquier posición es aceptable. Al principio en los foros de internet se habló de buscar orejas erectas, pero al cabo de observar diferentes camadas propias y ajenas, me he dado cuenta de que la oreja pendulante es lo más común en el xolo con pelo, y eso no implica que no existan ejemplares con orejas semi erectas o erectas, sin embargo lo dominante es lo anterior.

Esto no tiene nada de malo, como vemos en nuestras camadas mixtas continuan naciendo ejemplares pelones que con el tiempo yergen las orejas y ejemplares con pelo que solo en pocas ocasiones las logran levantar, pero eso no debe demeritarlos en lo absoluto.

Es muy probable que como parte de la dualidad intrinseca que conforma a la raza xoloitzcuintle, se pudieran destacar las orejas caidas como una de las características principales de la variedad con pelo. Un caso similar pasó con el norfolk y el norwich terriers, razas inglésas identicas, pero de las cuales una presenta las orejas caídas y la otra ergidas, pero que por mucho tiempo fueran una sola raza y que hace solo 25 años se bifurcaran, pero solo en el nombre, pues en el hecho se permite libremente la mezcla de ambas.

Este extremo ejemplo muestra como el público se decanto por ambas variedades por igual, conciviendolas como razas. En el caso del xolo con pelo, esto no devería pasar, como tampoco pasa con la versión con pelo del crestado chino, el famoso powder puff y su contraparte desnuda. Estas dos variedades permanecen como una misma raza, aunque cada una cuenta con muchos fans por igual.

Saludos


Is true, the coat length must be the same for both varieties, and apparently we all agree in that.

Where we all need to put more attention is in the interjection corresponding to the ears.
The breed standard says that in the coated variety, any position is acceptable.
In the internet forums was talked at first abut looking for erect ears, but after observing different litters mine and from other people, I have realized that the pendulant ear is the most common in coated xolos, and that doesn't imply that there are no coateds with erect or semi-erect ears, however the dominant is the previous thing.

This is not bad, like we see in our mixed litters that hairless dogs that rise their ears are born and dogs with coat that only few manage to occasionaly rise their ears, but that doesn't discredit them at all.

Is very probable that as part of the intrinsec duality that conforms the xoloitzcuintle breed, the fallen ears as a main characteristic of coated xolo can be emphasized.
A similar case is the one that happen with the norfolk and norwich terrier, english identical breeds, but one has fallen ears and the other one erected, but that for a long time were the same breed and only 25 years ago they were separated, but only by name, cause in fact the mating between them is permited.

This extreme example shows how the public show preference for both varieties, conceiving them as breeds. In the coated xolo case, this shouldn't happen, as it doesn't happen in the coated version of the chinese crested, the famous powderpuff and its hairless counterpart. This two varieties remain as the same breed, although each has many fans by equal.

Greetings

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:30 pm Reply with quote
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:48 pm Reply with quote
aingeal-cresteds
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Pues yo en lo personal siempre he creido que la razon por la que los peludos rara vez paran las orejas (pues en los powderpuffs tambien es dificil) es el peso del pelo, pues un powderpuff dificilmente las para y si se les razura es muchisimo mas facil y probable, incluso en los crestados hairless, a veces las tienen caidas y derrepente se las rapas y pum.. se paran instantaneamente... por lo que yo a partir del mes y medio o dos meses, empiezo a rapar orejas y de ser posible, rasurarlas. Quiza podria probarse lo mismo con los xolos peludos.


Well, I've always thought that the reason coateds and powderpuffs almost never lift their ears, is the hair weight. A Powderpuff almost never lifts them but if you shave their ears it's easier and more probable, even hairless cresteds, sometimes they have them down and when you shave them, pum, they instantly go up... that's why I start shaving with clipper and if I can with razor at 1months and a half or 2 months. Maybe the same thing could be tried with coated xolos.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:53 pm Reply with quote
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Buen punto lo de las orejas...
La verdad no conozco muchos xolos con pelo en persona, los pocos que he visto tienen orejas semierectas y uno que otro de esos pocos erectas.
Creo que en este caso de deberian de permitir semierectas y erectas... puesto que la mayoria las presenta caidas o semierectas.

Pero en cuando al pelaje creo que el estandar no deberia permitir todo, porque en ese caso cualquier perro de "tipo" similar al xolo podria pasar como tal sin serlo.


Good point about the ears...
Honestly I don't know alot of coated xolos in person, the few I've seen have semierect ears and some of them erect ears.
I think that in this case semierect and erect ears must be permited... cause the mayority have them fallen or semierect.

About coat I think that the standard shouldn't allow everything, cause in that case any dog with similar "tipe" to the xolo can pass as xolo without being a xolo.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:37 pm Reply with quote
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On 06.03.09 in Saint-Petersburg will take place I International scientifically-practical conference for FCI-judges “THESE UNKNOWN “MEXICANS”.
We are sorry, but we inform all our friends, but from Mexico will be one, only, member: SR. CESAR GUTIERREZ PEREZ. We hope, that you good know him and trust him.
The conference will inform FCI-judges about modern researching in Mexican's dogs (2001-2008). And Russian breeders will ask FCM about new standard of Xolos and standard of Chihuahueno. We know that the questions are difficult Very Happy
We want to ask about "mixes", "mutts" and coated. If in standard written "named ITZCUINTLE", why the coated receive the pedigree with Xoloitzcuintle.
Please understand that and in Russia are the kennels, which know and like these breeds, and want to keep their!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:13 pm Reply with quote
Gio
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Sorry for taking so long in answering your questions.

Most of us know very weel Judge Cesar Gutierrez, he is a xolo lover and has great knowledge of the breed.

Here in Mexico we are just starting to work with coateds since they have just been accepted by the FCI. The breed standard allow them to have any coat tipe and any ear possition, but short coat with erect or semi-erect ears is the correct tipe.

Coateds recieve the name of Xoloitzcuintle cause they are part of the same breed.

I hope one of the breeders that are part of our forum that has more experience than I in coated could helps us.

Regards,
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:32 pm Reply with quote
Gabriel Mestre
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Hello Svetlana and Gio,


I been working with coated xolo since the first part of the 90's, I have writing, breeding and show them since that time. As it is now I have full pedigrees that used them for at least the last two generations with very good results so far. Like Gio just wrote, the current breed standard allow coated to have ear settings and fure in every position, color or type. I think that it is good by now as we are just knowing this variety of the breed, but today is the time when we the breeders must decide what we do really expect from them and what is better for the breed.

The name Itzcuintle has been considered as a possibility for the coated variety since long time, but a different name also means a different breed, the xoloitzcuintle within two varieties that born together from the same combination of genes is still the same breed, so find another name for them is pointless.

Regarding Mr. Cesar Gutierrez I must said that he has a lot of expertise on the xoloitzcuintle and chihuahua breeds as he has judged many specialty shows in Mexico, he knows well the breeders and their trends over here, definitely it will be a great input for your audience.

Best Wishes

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:13 am Reply with quote
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Gabriel Mestre wrote:
...I been working with coated xolo since the first part of the 90's, I have writing, breeding and show them since that time. As it is now I have full pedigrees that used them for at least the last two generations with very good results so far. Like Gio just wrote, the current breed standard allow coated to have ear settings and fure in every position, color or type. I think that it is good by now as we are just knowing this variety of the breed, but today is the time when we the breeders must decide what we do really expect from them and what is better for the breed.

The name Itzcuintle has been considered as a possibility for the coated variety since long time, but a different name also means a different breed, the xoloitzcuintle within two varieties that born together from the same combination of genes is still the same breed, so find another name for them is pointless....

You working in Mexico, were lived and live Xolos, it's first and main.
We live in the country were Xolos was absent, but we have interesting researching from Mexico and USA:
The old (pre-hispanic) Xolos had one ancestor, and was include in fourth group of the domestic dogs.
Now they have four ancestors, include Southern Russian wolf. And it's in Mexico!!! Tested only two Mexican kennel.
Magazine "Nature" 08.12.2005
PS The Xolos are primitive dogs, and of course any "new" breed from Europe will give 100 points forvard to any Xolos, but it will kill the Xolos.

Sergey

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:27 am Reply with quote
Sv
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Hmmmmm,

Gabriel,
do you want to tell, that
caniche (all varieties, which are forbidden to mate between color & size varieties) are one breed?
griffons (brusseleoux, begious and petit brabancons) are one breed?
schnauzers (color & size varieties) are one breed?
pinschers (size varieties) are one breed?
must all these breeds be bred by all varieties together?

Chihuahuas long coated and smooth coated are 2 different BREEDS!!!
look at http://chihuahua.spb.ru/english/breeding11.aspx

It's official answer from FCM and FCI!!!

Svetlana

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:28 pm Reply with quote
Gabriel Mestre
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Hi Sergey and Svetlana,

After the first DNA research made on modern xolo by PH d Carles Vila that you mentioned. He made a second DNA round but this time helped by Dr Raul Valadez and PH d Jennifer Leonard, they did tested archeo-zoological bones from Valadez's prehispanic xolo collection. The results were also published by Science magazine.

At this time the results points that the xolo has a totally different origins than all other American dog breeds and that they were kind apart from the original group where the most of the dog breeds are come from, they found instead that xolo shares faraway roots with Eurasian and American wolves and closely with a particular group of dogs where breeds like Teckels are located too.

I think you are right when you said that Mexico is the mother land of xolo and that also there are some distant ancestors to trail in other countries and continents, Russian wolves can be a good example of it, but one thing is true and it is that the mutation that modified the ectodermic structure of ancient coated dogs occurs in the north west coast of Mexico a couple of thousands of years a go and since that time this dog has become a part of many of the most important native cultures of the west hemisphere.

I'm not sure that genetic exchange with other european dog breeds can kill the xolo and his mutation in the long round, actually modern xolo as every other "primitive" dog breed has had input from them in some how. The only way to preserve the xolo together as a whole breed is on the hands of the breeders and they must be sure to use the standard as a closest tool and this last must be updated often by scientist information.

Regarding all other breeds that has several varietiesin size and color and those other that under FCI nomenclatures are considered as separated breeds because some differences, I must say that many of them were just products of fashion and trends, human being has changed the look of the dog according to his own wishes and preferences, using recessive mutations just for convenience, one of the must representative mechanisms to describe this kind of selection is to encourage ethnical and cultural differences between neighbor countries or between people within the same land even when the dog is the same. In another post I toke the norwich and norkfolk terrier breeds as an example of discrepancy.

It seems like some times duality is a really difficult concept to get within this selective dog world, but not impossible to understand just have a look on the very popular chinese crested breed that has his own coated variety calls powder puff. In xolo the coated variety is the counterpart of the naked one, the current breed standard mentioned that the ancient name for the coated was itzcuintli or itzcuintle, a word from the nahuatl language with many different meanings, one of those to describes a dog covered of fur. It was a translation made by the Spanish conquers five centuries a go, but it doesn't means that all the dog types called Itzcuintle at that time were coated xolos. Today the xoloitzcuintle is a modern dog breed with only a fifty years old written standard and two years old new recognized coated variety. In my concern the right name for the hole breed is xoloitzcuintle and it has two varieties coated and hairless and three sizes standard, intermediate and miniature. It is a mistake call it Mexican Hairless or what ever it means in other language.

Many detractors of the coated xolo has suggested to use a different name for them and to start a new coated dog breed, they do believe that coated xolos are not pure and refuse to accept them completely.

The new generation of Mexican breeders is very careful about this and some other points, in order to keep the xolo breed together in many ways.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:51 pm Reply with quote
Gabriel Mestre
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Hola a todos,

Es bien sabido, que más allá de las románticas nomenclaturas creadas por la FCI, el xoloitzcuintle esta estrechamente emparentado con otras dos razas caninas que comparten muchas de sus caracteristicas y sobre todo su biología. Se trata del perro sin pelo del perú y el crestado chino.

En conjunto, estas tres razas desnudas conforman el pequeño destacamento de perros pelones, único ,dentro del basto universo canino existente hoy en día. En el caso del xoloitzcuintle y el crestado chino, ya se han reconocido sus variedades con pelo. Paradogicamente, esto no ha causado la misma consecuencia para el PSPP.

Los pioneros en manejar la dualidad (con pelo-sin pelo) en este tipo de razas, fueron los criadores de crestado chino al final de los años 70, ellos comprendieron en relativamente poco tiempo los beneficios de conservar y mesclar ambas variedades, los progresos que han conseguido hasta ahora, son innegables. Un basamento genético mucho más amplio, ejemplares más sanos y una espectacular difusión de las dos variedades de la raza a nivel mundial, a la fecha existen más de mil afijos de criaderos de crestado chino registrados en todo el planeta.

Aunque al principio se esperaban cosas diferentes de la combinación hairless con powder puff, rapidamente los entusiastas de la raza, se dieron cuenta que este último, si bien no aportaba más piezas dentales como se habia sugerido, tampoco hacia predominar la presencia de pelo en las camadas. Por lo que al continuar teniendo camadas mixtas pero más fuertes esta adición fue ampliamente valorada. De igual forma, se dieron a la tarea de unificar a su naciente variedad y fue así que las preferencias de la mayoría se impusieron.

Como caso curioso, hay que mencionar que la aceptación llego a tan fuerte que en varios países europeos, los clubes de raza locales tuvieron que intervenir para evitar que solo se criara entre si a la variedad powder puff (con pelo), diseñando programas de cría donde se tuviera que realizar una cruza mixta por lo menos en cada segunda generación. Sin embargo, este ejemplo no representa la regla y al día de hoy, la mayoría se cría bajo un programa mixto pero flexible, destacando primero las cualidades de los ejemplares y no a que variedad pertenecen.


Sin embargo, en el estándar racial actual del crestado chino, poco se menciona al powder puff, en general este documento es el mismo para la variedad hairless, y con la salvedad de los incisos dedicados a orejas o pelo, no se habla de otras características particulares. Queda asumido que ambas variedades nacen juntas, producto de la misma combinación de genes y se deben percibir de igual forma .

En el caso particular de las orejas, la norma comenta que la variedad con pelo (powder puff), puede presentarlas caídas y se asume que la variedad desnuda las debe presentar erectas. En términos de pelaje, se menciona que la piel posee una capa inferior con un velo suave de pelo largo, siendo característico el pelaje en forma de velo.

Como aquí queda asentado, existen aun más argumentos y antecedentes aparte de los evolutivos e historicos para considerar que la posición de las orejas en el xolo con pelo pueda ser mixta, aceptandose caídas y levantadas al igual que en la raza china. Sin necesidad de caer en exigencias absurdas, que no representan más que un caprichoso ideal tradicionalista y solo pretende interpretar con especulación a un tipo de perro antiguo en la era moderna.

La variedad con pelo del xoloitzcuintle, se esta definiendo hoy los criadores, con observación, información y en la práctica. Categóricamente se debe rechazar la posibilidad de sacrificar, salud, excelentes conformaciones y movimiento, solo por ganar orejas erguidas.

Por otro lado, el estándar mexicano del xoloitzcuintle, publicado internacionalmente por la FCI en mayo de 2007, es bastante más especifico en lo referente a la variedad con pelo, que el desarrollado para el powder puff. Pero aunque se detiene en varios puntos, también deja algunas incógnitas. Sin embargo, el ejercicio realizado por los criadores de CC, durante los años es muy importante, pues es sorprendente como con tan poco información han logrado una apariencia tan homogénea en tipo para ambas variedades.

Saludos

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:23 am Reply with quote
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MUy buenas experiencias gracias por compartrilas...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:37 pm Reply with quote
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Gabriel Mestre wrote:
Hi Sergey and Svetlana...

We are sorry for delay, but few days we was very busy!
06.03.09 was conference, and we hope that very successful! 07.03.09 three our dogs became the winners in own classes and received BOB under Cesar Gutierrez Perez! Now we are checking translations of materials of the conference.
About your answer:
Should we write to Guinness Book Commitee about this wonderful Russian wolf-swimmer, which acrossed Atlantic ocean and mated Xolo's bitch or we should tell our special thanks to owners of GOODKNOWN kennels for including the dogs from first group to fourth group?
I repeat: were tested Mexican kennels, ONLY. And in bloods of their dogs was Russian wolf. If tested our dogs, from Russia, instead four ancestors will be six. Another wolfs are absent!

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El Estandar y Xolo con pelo - The Standard & the Coated
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